The Writing Life

An interview with Santa Fe author Joe Cooke on the writing life, the creative process, and the nuts and bolts of transforming ideas to finished products.

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Cline’s Corner Interview

February 25, 2022 with author Joe Cooke

Lynn Cline  0:12  

Welcome to Cline’s Corner with me your host, Lynn Cline. Here you'll hear from the characters of the city who give the city its character. My guest today is Santa Fe author, Joe Cooke. Welcome, Joe, it's great to have you on the show.

Joe Cooke  0:28  

Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Cline  0:31  

I'm excited to talk with you about all the writing that you do in every genre, practically, from fiction to nonfiction, short stories, and even textbooks or learning books. So this will be really inspiring. Well, let me just start off by saying, You have said, on your website, I read anyway that you write because you have a desire “to inspire, and entertain us, in order to make our lives better”. And that your nonfiction is, quote, “based on a lifetime of studying the fundamentals of meaningful personal accomplishment”. And that your fiction is just pure fun. So, I wanted to start off by talking about your fiction, because we could all use some fun. You have written a number of novels. And by the way, they're all on your website, so anyone interested can go to JoeCookeAuthor.com. And that's cook with an E at the end. So, you have these novels that have strong female warriors who battle the wrongs of the world to set them right. And sometimes battle werewolves and zombies. I think this is fascinating, and that you also take your inspiration from current events. So, I'd love to ask you to talk about one of your novels, whichever one you choose. And let's hear a little bit about, you know, the characters, these female warriors, and also maybe how they are drawn from current events, the plots that they're involved in.

Cooke  2:12  

Sure, I what I enjoy watching on TV and reading about are those very strong female protagonists. So even though I'm a middle-aged white guy, I still like those characters best, I just think they're, they're more interesting than the guys that I read about. And I do read a lot of fiction that has the guy, you know, and he saves the day, but I do really like to write about strong female warrior types. But it's maybe kind of with a twist. So, here's an example: Curse of the Black scarab. I wrote that after my daughter was born, she had a congenital defect. And so we spent five weeks in intensive care with her, but she healed kind of miraculously. And so I was thinking I was kind of between books at the time. And I thought, would it be cool to have this superhero young girl and she's kind of developing and, and my daughter was in the ladybug unit, at the ICU. And so I said, what if this character was developed into a ladybug, and she had a shell and she can fly. And then she has super strong hair, which is kind of strange, but it comes into play in the novel. And so I wrote this novel Curse of the Black Scarab, about this young girl who is a coming of age novel, she becomes a superhero, she defeats this robot. And that's been one of my most popular books. And it's a, it's a very young adult, kind of middle grade book, which is not normally what I write, but it just felt right for the character. And so that when I say current events is usually something that's going on in my life. The books and screenplays I'm working on right now, are based on what was going on in my life when I started down, which was a couple years ago, because, because unlike Stephen King, it takes me a couple years to write a novel. The one that I'm chopping around right now, I started in I want to say so yes, timber of 2020. And I'm doing well I'm revising it again, as I'm shopping it around. So I'm so so these are long term projects for me. Um, here's another example. That's not this is kind of just how an idea comes to me. I was thinking about the Hansel and Gretel. And I just kind of turned around my mind and I said, what an answer I've read where the evil ones and the witch was, was a good witch. And of course, Hansel and Gretel kill the good Which and survive. And so when they tell this story, the story that we get passed down through history is that ants like rebel were the victims. But they're cursed. And so this long line of witches now is coming to an end that they've been killing these witches off, in order to rid themselves of this curse that turns them into werewolves. And so this young character in this small town, is the last in the line of these witches and the werewolves are after her. And so yeah, that's, that's these ideas kind of come to me. And then I go, I have a list of them. And I test them to see, is that a good premise? Is it going to work? Is it going to carry a whole book? Or is it just a situation, maybe it could be a short story. And then I outline it kind of meticulously. And then I start writing. And there's this day that comes when the book appears in my head, kind of fully formed. And my wife doesn't like it when I when I compare it to being pregnant. But that's what it feels like to me that I'm pregnant with this book, and I have to push it out. And so that first original draft of a book, like this one that I wrote back in September, September, October, November, that's three months of solid writing, but it was a couple of years of thinking, and three months of solid writing, and then it's been a year and a half of revising and getting it so it all fits together. And it reads well. And it's the right word count. It was 120,000. And the agent I was working with at the time said, Yeah, you got to get that down to maybe 80.

Cline  6:49 

What? (laughing)

Cooke  6:50  

I said, Okay, all right, I can do that. One of the things that I've learned as a, as a trade nonfiction writer, two things I've learned is word count matters. And I've learned how to take that criticism, and really work it. So if somebody is an expert in a field, like an agent or an editor, and they say this, you need to change this, you need to take this out, this needs to fit better than I take it to heart and I hit the desk and start rewriting.

Cline  7:26  

I think that's probably one of the hardest things of writing is rewriting, revising, discarding, deleting, you know, these things that you've come to love. But you're right, if you work with the right kind of editor, agent, publisher, even in some cases, you do learn, you do learn a lot about writing, and you'll change the way you approach writing the next time. 

Cooke  7:51  

Yeah, what I do find that my first drafts now are much better than they used to be. I'm writing and I go, that's not gonna work. Somebody is gonna say, No, you can't do that.

Cline  8:06  

Now, how much time do you estimate that you spend between thinking about the book and then actually sitting down to write?

Cooke  8:15  

I would say, 90% of my work (I've thought this for a long time) 90% of my work is internal. And some people think, oh, writing is typing, but typing is 10% of what I do.

Cline  8:30  

Amazing. That's amazing. 

Cooke  8:33  

And of course, that's just my estimate. I don't really track it like that.

Cline  8:37  

Right. But still, that ability to sit that long with it and really let it tell the story to you, so to speak. That's great. Now, do you have a working title for this? Hansel and Gretel.

Cooke  8:54  

Oh, that one's done. It's Garing Cross and it's on my website.

Cline  8:58  

That's Garing Cross. Okay, I was gonna ask you about that. Because on your website, it talks about ancient curses and buried history. I didn't realize that was the one. All right, I'm gonna have to read that. It's just fascinating. It's such a brilliant way of approaching this timeless story that, you know, every child has learned and to turn it on its head. You know, that's wonderful, very inventive. Now, you mentioned short stories a few minutes ago, and I know that you had a short story. Well, actually, it was a nonfiction short story, I guess, in the reporter that that was one of the award winning stories in what 2017?

Cooke  9:42  

No, no, it was just last fall.

Cline  9:45  

It just happened. How exciting.

Cooke  9:49  

My friend Zibby Wilder, who writes for the reporter, just sent me an email and she said, Hey, there's these two contests, fiction and nonfiction. And I thought that'd be kind of fun. Sometimes I do these things just to exercise the writing muscle, which I don't really need to do, because I'm usually working on about two or three different projects at a time. So right now I'm just finishing up an MBA online MBA textbook course. Um, financial statement analysis, that's not really creative work, I'm pretty good at it. And so it's, you know, provides a steady stream of income. But anyway, Zibby sent me the link to that. And I said, I'm just going to write these. I got two ideas, I got a fiction and a nonfiction idea. And it was just what was going on that day with me. So that nonfiction piece on was a phone call from a friend. And then I said something stupid, and I felt bad about it. And I was thought this is my dad kind of leaking out of me. So I just wrote that up. And I, it was a first draft and I just sent it in. And then I did the fiction one the same way. And I really thought my fiction story was much better than the nonfiction. But I also think that the field was the probably a lot tougher in the fiction. Right? So anyway, they picked the nonfiction piece and published it. And that was fun.

Cline  11:19  

Yes, and that piece is on your website. And it's also on the Reporter’s website. It's titled: “Ask Me”, and it was fascinating to read this sort of whole thought process about your father speaking out of your mouth telling you using your using his words, and following that it was wonderful story. Well, congratulations on that. That's very cool. You recently moved to Santa Fe. How, how long ago did you move here?

Cooke  11:47  

We moved in June of 2019.

Cline  11:51  

Okay. 2019, from the Pacific Northwest. So that's a wonderful way to have Santa Fe, to introduce Santa Fe, to your to your writing through the Santa Fe reporter. Very cool.

Cooke  12:05  

It's been really amazing. It's been incredible. I think when I was in Walla Walla, I didn't feel like a real writer. And then when I got to Santa Fe, and I can say Joe Cooke is an author and lives in Santa Fe, all of a sudden, it feels much more like Tony Hillerman like I'm a real writer, and I live in a cool place. They're not some podunk town in Washington,

Cline  12:29  

I've never been there. But I've been to other parts, you know, around Seattle, it's beautiful. Lots of water, which we miss here. But I think, you know, Santa Fe, and Taos and northern New Mexico have an incredible history with writers, you know, all the way back to the early 1900s. So you're in good company here, with people like DH Lawrence, Willa Cather, you know, and today, lots of wonderful writers are here. So it's a good community to be in.

Cooke  13:03  

And it's also there's a spirituality about this place or something that my creativity took a kind of a hit. Back in 2018, I was diagnosed with bone marrow cancer. And so just the chemo and all of that I just didn't think I was ever going to write again. And then my wife was in a job that was just killing her. And she said, she just texted me one day, we hadn't even talked about this and said, :When can we move to Santa Fe?” It was kind of a joke. And so I googled it, I'm sitting at home, you know, recovering from my chemotherapy. And I googled it and said, Let's just go, I just sell everything and go, you know, because I don't really want to die in Walla Walla. Because, you know, let's die someplace. Cool. So, so and I'm doing pretty well. Now I'm in remission, but at the time, we didn't know what's going to happen with us. And so we just packed up and moved down here on a whim. Love it. And then. So since I've been down here, I'm working on a couple different novels and a couple of screenplays and I've been writing again and so um, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been fabulous.

Cline  14:21  

I'm so glad you're in remission. And, you know, you're right about this spiritual aspect to Santa Fe and so many different aspects to that spirituality here. But it's, you know, Santa Fe has long been a healing place going all the way back to tuberculosis patients who came here thinking they were going to die and then 40 years later, you know, they're writing, writing poetry and short stories. So you're in you're in a good place. I'm glad your wife thought of Santa Fe, and that you googled it and found it. So let's talk for a second about Growing up, I read that you had a you read voraciously as a young guy, young man, young boy, maybe even. And that books by Louis L'Amour, Kurt Vonnegut, Ian Fleming, and Hemingway were some of your early inspirations. After writing for all these years and all these different genres, do you still find that these authors inspire or influence you?

Cooke  15:27  

I know that when I first started writing, seriously, probably, I was probably 25 That I was still reading those and enjoying those kinds of books. And so I didn't have a voice of my own as a writer, but so I would copy. I wrote a short story just in the style of Kurt Vonnegut. And I wrote another short, short book novella, I guess it was in the style of Ernest Hemingway, very objective and action oriented. And so yeah, over time, I really think that those early authors like inflaming the way he would always include some kind of cool meal, or other detail, like a little roadside hotel or something. So that still I know that influences me. And I, I have an eclectic taste and authors, I guess I love Stephen King and love Tony Hillerman. So I think that's why my writing is kind of all over the place, you know, I don't write just fantasy or something like that. I write whatever story pops into my head that takes over.

Cline  16:47  

That's a real gift, I think, to be able to switch gears like that and feel comfortable in all these different styles. And, you know, it makes me wonder with all the different kinds of books you write, as well as the different novels you write the plots the characters, where do you think your ideas come from?

Cooke  17:08  

Well, the current book I'm working on, I don't want to give away too much of it…

Cline  17:13  

Yeah, don't give away anything. That's fine.

Cooke  17:16  

…but I'm working on my, oh, let I'll tell you one that I'm not working on. So somebody could take this idea and run with it for all I care. But my wife and I were walking in the Arroyo. And for some reason we were talking about, I don't remember what we were talking about. But I had this idea of this young lady who saw everybody in brilliant colors. And then one day, she's walking along, in, in the city. And this one person passes her was completely monochromatic with so everybody has these brilliant colors that are like flags and streamers. But this guy is just completely sharp, black and white. And so that starts off this story in my mind about why is t like that. And, you know, he's one of the evil minions have some kind of bigger force, and she's just a young girl, but she's gonna save the world from whatever these things are. So that these ideas is kind of they come to me and like I say, I'll write them down. And I'll even start the story. So I've written the first scene of that. And I think I started it as a screenplay just for fun, because sometimes I write a screenplay. And that becomes the outline for the novel. And then I taste test it to see that one kind of stopped there. And I could take it various places, but I've got plenty of other stuff I'm working on. So little ideas will come to me and I'll dismiss them. Big Idea will come to me, I'll test it out. They often come to me on walks. That's really, really common on motorcycle rides. Usually those two things, they seem to be the most common, but also I'll get an idea just like, my cancer treatment gave me an idea for a novel that I'm working on now.

Cline  19:10  

Wow. Wonderful. And you know, I hadn't thought about that. But starting with a screenplay, you get all these details nailed down, that you can then work into your fiction. That's a really great idea.

Cooke  19:25  

A start with an outline. That's, um, it's a maybe a sentence for before pages, let's say. And then if I feel like it, I turn it into a screenplay. Because the screenplays or don't have a lot of description. So it's more dialogue with a few action lines. And then the screenplay then becomes an outline for a whole book where I can just fill in all the stuff that happens between so I'm the director of making the movie. And sometimes I go right from the outline to the book. probably more often I do that.

Cline  20:02  

That's brilliant. That's a really interesting and fascinating approach. Now, you mentioned your motorcycle. And I think I was wondering whether you when you get out on your Harley Road King and venture out drive all around the great Southwest, you know, are you out there sort of escaping your writing desk? Or are you out there, you know, do you not think about writing, but it sounds like ideas come to you, as you just mentioned.

Cooke  20:32  

It really releases me and opens my mind up and I'll be riding along going, Oh, I wish I had a recorder right now, because I just figured out what to do with that particular plot. I'm writing a book right now based on a trip I took last summer. And this summer, I'm taking a two-month road trip. Just taking my laptop writing. See what happens.

Cline  20:56  

Wow, does that sound wonderful. Are you going to go beyond the Southwest or stick around here?

Cooke  21:02  

I’m planning to go up to Jackson Hole and then Glacier and then over to the coast and back down.

Cline  21:07  

Wow. Okay, that'll be fun. That'll be a lot of fun. Well, I think I just want to remind listeners that we're talking with Santa Fe, author, Joe Cooke, and his website, JoeCookeAuthor. That's Joe, Cooke with an E at the end, author.com. It has lots of wonderful essays and other things and you've written a blog too, I think, is that right?

Cooke  21:35  

Yeah, I call the blog my short stories because they're just blog posts, really.

Cline  21:40  

Right. They're fun though. They're fun to read. And you can also check out his novels too. And lots of other interesting things. Well, boy, I envy you add on your motorcycle this summer. I think that sounds fun. And it's been great having you on the show today. We're just about out of time. So I want to thank you for joining me, Joe. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And thank you for tuning in today listeners to Cline’s Corner. Tune in again next week, same time, same station, KSFR 101.1 FM and I'll see you on the radio

Transcribed by otter.ai